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  • what drives the match engine?

    I have recently downloaded a player editor for ICC 2013 built by Faizan (a respected community member). It is excellent but I am disappointed by the few parameters that appear to drive the processing for the match engine. Chris, I am hoping that you can tell us more, and that ICC 2014 is more sophisticated.

    The parameters in the editor are as follows:

    - player type
    - bat hand
    - wicket keeper status
    - batting ability
    - 3 fields for batsmen's preferences (as seen on the game screens)
    - bowling type
    - and bowling ability

    Are these the only parameters used by the match engine? After nearly 20 years of being told that the match engine has been improved with every new version, I would be disappointed if this were the case. For instance:

    - is a 'player type' restricted to these values, or is a he defined by his abilities and skills in the different facets of the game
    - how fast does he bat (maybe this is defined by the aggression level in batting preferences)
    - how reliable is he - does he always score 50, or 0 and 100 in equal measures. Both would give the same average score
    - wicket keeping ability - something more than yes/no/sometimes
    - fielding ability?
    - does a bowler seam or swing the ball? Which way?

    None of these things are included in the parameters of the editor, so I am right to assume that there is nothing in the match engine for them? There are many statistics in the game for players in all the different formats of the game. Does the match engine use these? The match engine appears to give a fairly realistic simulation of a game but it would be interesting to know what is actually taken into account in the processing.

  • #2
    A bit of logical question.Would love to have a reply from Chris,given that I am making a Cricket Captain like game (of course a much inferior prototype) as my final year project.Would be a great deal of help if professor Child could shed some light on programming aspects of the game in general to management/simulation games,if not particular to Cricket Captain.
    Waiting eagerly for ICC 2014.

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    • #3
      Hi Anku,

      looks as if we might inadvertently have touched a nerve here. I have never known Chris or Sureshot not to reply to a thread

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      • #4
        Originally posted by monte-d View Post
        Hi Anku,

        looks as if we might inadvertently have touched a nerve here. I have never known Chris or Sureshot not to reply to a thread
        I think you've answered your own question. ICC has such a reliable, realistic and repeatable match engine that introducing extra (and possibly unnecessary) parameters will probably only lead to the risk of messing it all up. For the sake of having a bowler who specialises in outswing vs inswing for instance, it just isn't worth it. I'm with you on fielding skill being introduced though

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        • #5
          I might add too, that you've only mentioned the player skill parameters.
          There are many, many more variables that the icc match engine takes into account when simulating the game of cricket (weather, pitch conditions, ball age, user agression & field settings, player form, settled ratings, fatigue, line & length selected etc etc)

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          • #6
            I think mentioning the parameters won't hurt much.ICC's near-perfect engine is a result of years of AI programming.The main thing is how efficient your code is to last,say,20 years,as ICC has.You can tweak it every year,but the root is what Chris must have invented years ago.If you achieve a level of perfection at the start,making it better is a touch easier,I suppose,every year.
            Given that Chris has been training students at the university over the years,I was expecting a reply here.
            Waiting eagerly for ICC 2014.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Anku31 View Post
              I think mentioning the parameters won't hurt much.ICC's near-perfect engine is a result of years of AI programming.The main thing is how efficient your code is to last,say,20 years,as ICC has.You can tweak it every year,but the root is what Chris must have invented years ago.If you achieve a level of perfection at the start,making it better is a touch easier,I suppose,every year.
              Given that Chris has been training students at the university over the years,I was expecting a reply here.
              I don't understand why you think Chris has to reply with his parameters?
              We've mentioned more than enough of them in this thread already.

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              • #8
                You make a good point about the other parameters such as the weather and pitch condition etc.

                However the players skills are obviously important in selection, bowler choice, tactics, field settings. All things a real captain must take into consideration. After 20 years of development I would have expected these to be a fundamental part of the game.

                Also account should be taken of the players real life career to date and recent performance. Those stats are meaningful in real life. Basing decisions in the game on those would provide realism, and more than that would automatically carry on year to year as those stats are updated (ie without the need to update secondary parameters or program code).

                I say again that the match engine gives reasonable results. I disagree with you though that adding skills would harm it. I think quite the opposite, and it would give more for the captain to consider - a move forward for the game.

                We must be realistic that the game has not really changed (for the player) for many years and it must be seen to move forward as football manager has. I would love to know sales figures but I would bet that they fall year on year. It is an old game supported by a hardcore of enthusiasts.

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                • #9
                  Chris, Sureshot,

                  I am really disappointed that you have not given any reply to this. I raised the topic thinking that you would come back and say 'of course we have parameters for all these skills', or if not that there are plans to extend the skill set in the future.

                  I am sure there are other parameters used in the game other than those is Faizan's editor. Players skin colour for a start, and maybe a shoe-laces one that makes the fielders fall over every time they chase the ball.

                  It is the match engine that really interests me, not the training/buying/managing the players, but the captaincy part of the game - it is called 'International Cricket Captain' after all.

                  I would love to see a game where the skills of the captain and the players are really taken into account. Where field settings and bowling changes really make a difference for individual batsmen, and where you can get into the minds of the opposition as Brearley did the Australians thirty years ago.

                  Ok, that may be a pipe dream, but I hoped this thread would give you an opportunity to show how you are aiming towards it. These things would set the game apart from football management games. Cricket is the king of games and it would be great to reflect that in the king of computer games.

                  I have really enjoyed your game for the best part of 20 years but the lack of change/progress is becoming boring. I quote from Wikipedia 'Over recent years, a common criticism from games reviewers is of the perceived lack of progress in terms of the game's functionality, with the obvious change between versions tending to be limited to updated players and statistics'

                  I am feeling that it is much like playing pencil cricket (owzat ... that helped me through latin lessons many year) ... admittedly with a couple of extra pencils thrown in.

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                  • #10
                    Simple answer there are far more parameters in the match engine than the unofficial editor. Your basic assumption in your original post that because an unofficial editor doesn't list every parameter there aren't others used is totally wrong. The complete list of parameters will never be made public as that would ruin the game but just accept there are far more than the few listed in that editor. If everything parameter was public then you would just look at a lists of stats and pick purely on numbers. Joe Root doesn't have batting skill 46 stamped on his shirt but you do know his career average and last 2 seasons averages in detail to help you. Good players of Cricket Captain can work out the good players and maybe perceive their own values for the 'hidden' parameters.

                    If you think field settings and bowling changes don't have an impact for individual batsman then sorry again you are wrong. There are details provided in the game that may influence your decisions if you choose to do so.

                    The number of changes to the match engine year on year is massive. The fact is most are hidden. The more major ones have been mentioned like improvement to 4th innings run chases to be more realistic. As has been mentioned though when you have a complex model adding another parameter for the sake of it can totally skew the accuracy and unless that parameter is known for every player what do you do for those where it isn't known? It is actually simpler and more realistic to leave it out.

                    If the game had simulated the recent England India test series we would probably have had people complain that last wicket partnerships were broken and no-way Jimmy Anderson would get close to a 100. I even joked to Chris at the time had he adjusted 10th wicket partnerships to allow for such outlier occurrences.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dan Thomas View Post
                      Simple answer there are far more parameters in the match engine than the unofficial editor. Your basic assumption in your original post that because an unofficial editor doesn't list every parameter there aren't others used is totally wrong. The complete list of parameters will never be made public as that would ruin the game but just accept there are far more than the few listed in that editor. If everything parameter was public then you would just look at a lists of stats and pick purely on numbers. Joe Root doesn't have batting skill 46 stamped on his shirt but you do know his career average and last 2 seasons averages in detail to help you. Good players of Cricket Captain can work out the good players and maybe perceive their own values for the 'hidden' parameters.

                      If you think field settings and bowling changes don't have an impact for individual batsman then sorry again you are wrong. There are details provided in the game that may influence your decisions if you choose to do so.

                      The number of changes to the match engine year on year is massive. The fact is most are hidden. The more major ones have been mentioned like improvement to 4th innings run chases to be more realistic. As has been mentioned though when you have a complex model adding another parameter for the sake of it can totally skew the accuracy and unless that parameter is known for every player what do you do for those where it isn't known? It is actually simpler and more realistic to leave it out.

                      If the game had simulated the recent England India test series we would probably have had people complain that last wicket partnerships were broken and no-way Jimmy Anderson would get close to a 100. I even joked to Chris at the time had he adjusted 10th wicket partnerships to allow for such outlier occurrences.
                      Well said, it is the unpredictability of cricket that is its charm.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks Dan, these were exactly my sentiments when I raised the thread.

                        I do not understand though why Chris should be so cagey about the parameters used. I am sure there are lots more. It would be really good to know about them.

                        - Firstly it would improve the game. If we know what things are taken into account it can influence the captaincy decisions we make
                        - Second it would be a great advertisement for the game so see everything that is taken into consideration
                        - third it becomes a discussion point for improvements in the future.

                        I can only see benefits in this. I have deliberately not asked 'how' these parameters would be used. I am not asking for trade secrets.

                        I also understand that taking a simple approach can sometimes lead to apparently more realistic results. Ultimately though the more things you can take into account the more realistic the match engine should be. If adding something new makes it less realistic, it simply means that the assumptions are wrong, either for that parameter, or for something elsewhere. the trick is to find it.

                        It has long been a criticism of the game that there has been little visible change. I appreciate that a lot may have been going on 'behind the scenes', but if the game is to thrive there need to be developments in the way the game is played. Giving the captain more on which to base his decisions would make the game more realistic.

                        It is not really fair to compare the game to Football Manager or Fifa Manager because of the huge amount of funding they get for development. However it is these games that ICC has chosen to emulate and you only have to look at how those games have developed. I read recently that a premiership football club has done a deal with one of those games for their database, because of the information (parameters again) that are held for youth players all around the world. I wish that I could imagine that happening for ICC.

                        Monte-d

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                        • #13
                          I have been looking at this thread, but don't want to give too much away. The simple answer is that there is a huge amount more depth to the engine than you see in the editors. They typically only access the most obvious bits that they can find easily. We add detail to the engine each year. It's deliberately kept secret so that you have to evaluate your players by watching their performaces. It would be a pretty dull game if you just knew who the best XI was. I even keep things 'secret' from the AI so the computer doesn't have any advantage. As a rule of thumb, if it's a factor in real life, we try to simulate it in the engine. There are a couple of things that still need to be done (and when those are done there will be more).

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                          • #14
                            Thanks for replying Chris, I am sure there are lots of other things that you consider within the match engine. However if I may be excused, I felt that you reply was a bit of a cop out, and that you seem to have misunderstood my request.

                            I) you already give details of players likes and dislikes regarding facing fast bowlers or spin, or whether they favour the off-side or leg, which seems to go against your answer

                            ii) I am not asking for details of any players. I agree that you should have to work out who is good or not good just as a real captain would do. In real life you would take account of the weather, the pitch, what you know about the opposition, and about your own players, and the state of the game. you would make your team select accordingly, and make tactical decisions based on it. My question was whether the match engine took account of various characteristics of the players and other things - ie it was a question about what factors should I take into account as captain within the game, and not about individual players.

                            iii) Whilst I am with you regarding information about particular players, a real England manager would have huge amounts of information and statistics and research of available to him about the opposition ... so it might not be that unrealistic to provide it within the game

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                            • #15
                              It is good to hear there are many more parameters we do not know about Off course it is simpler to leave things out! What a cop out! Leaving things out hardly enhances the game or our captaincy experience. After nearly 20 years of development I cannot understand why you are not shouting about all the things that ARE in the game, and each one you add makes the game better and you should be telling us.

                              I should like to see members of this forum draw up a list of all the things a real captain has to consider, and a genuine answer from you Chris, as to whether they are or are not taken into account in the game. You seem to think this would be a criticism. It would not be. It would give you ideas for future development and could enhance the captaincy experience for many players. We would still have to work out how much everything affected results

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